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Lithium Battery?

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VinnyE
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Lithium Battery?

#1 PostAuthor: VinnyE » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:15 pm

I need a new battery for my GPZ1100 B1 and found this on Ebay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LITHIUM-BATTE ... SwYIhWivJy
I am concerned with it being a company in Italy - so may have problems if there are issues with it.
Thoughts on this appreciated.

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Pigford
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Re: Lithium Battery?

#2 PostAuthor: Pigford » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:48 pm

Had one of these on my Harris Z1000 - worked great last 3 yrs.......


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/For-Kawasaki- ... Swm8VU0jkX
And on the 7th day... Zeds were created!

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RALPHARAMA
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Re: Lithium Battery?

#3 PostAuthor: RALPHARAMA » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:40 pm

The reason I have steered away from using Lithium Ion batteries on my old bikes is that I'm fairly sure that the very basic charging system on these bikes will not get the best from Lithium Ion batteries and will probably do little for their longevity. I have used both gel and AGM batteries in my old Zeds and have had no problems.

With Gel batteries, you MUST ensure that they never suffer a very deep discharge as they don't like it. Unless you have fitted something as unnatural as an alarm to your old Zed it shouldn't be a problem. They don't discharge anything like as badly when not used as traditional flooded lead acid.

The main reason for using Lithium Ion is that the weight is much less for a set capacity and whilst the case is the same size, most of the contents is stale air. They are great for race bikes, but have little if any advantage on a classic bike.
Ralph Ferrand
Z1000A1 (1977), Godier Genoud Z1300A5 (1983), Z900A4 (1976) GPZ1100 Unitrak (1983), H2C (1975), RD250B (1975)(project), ZRX1200R (2005) DT175MX (1981) YZF R6 (1999)
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Re: Lithium Battery?

#4 PostAuthor: VinnyE » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:49 pm

Thanks for the replies guys.
I am not that bothered about the weight saving - could lose more weight myself than I can on a battery!
I may go down the gel route - as I don't want to be messing around with acid - my HH400 has a nasty acid stain on the left hand exhaust and will need re-chroming because of it!

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Re: Lithium Battery?

#5 PostAuthor: needaz1100r » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:02 pm

I haven't tried a Lithium battery yet just because I have recently put yellow motobatts on most of my bikes, but I have heard good things from some VERY trusted sources, i.e. not just the bloke down the pub.

1, not affected by being deep discharged, so if you forget to optimate over winter, no problem, a possible big deal on classic bikes when not used much.
2, not affected by cold, I have lost betteries because my workshop is not heated.
3, fast charge time, in minutes instead of hours.
4, powerful, no trouble turning over monster engine Harleys or old Harley's with shit starter motors.

There is no acid, not even absorbed into gel.

I will be going lithium next time I need a battery.
Cheers,

Mark.

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Re: Lithium Battery?

#6 PostAuthor: CAT3 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:25 pm

There are lithium ion & lithium iron batteries, apparently two very different animals.
I've bought a Shorai lithium iron for my custom bike because of the large CCA rating for the physical size over the normal lead acid equivalent. There's also a massive weight saving.
Not managed to try it out yet though so my expectations could be dashed !!

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Re: Lithium Battery?

#7 PostAuthor: johny brando » Mon May 01, 2017 7:42 am

needaz1100r wrote:I haven't tried a Lithium battery yet just because I have recently put yellow motobatts on most of my bikes, but I have heard good things from some VERY trusted sources, i.e. not just the bloke down the pub.

1, not affected by being deep discharged, so if you forget to optimate over winter, no problem, a possible big deal on classic bikes when not used much.
2, not affected by cold, I have lost betteries because my workshop is not heated.
3, fast charge time, in minutes instead of hours.
4, powerful, no trouble turning over monster engine Harleys or old Harley's with shit starter motors.

There is no acid, not even absorbed into gel.

I will be going lithium next time I need a battery.


Hey Mark, just to ley you know....I like you heard good things about Moto Batt batteries & bought one for my 1050 Speed Triple ...as they need a high Cold Crank rated battery ...it lasted 5 weeks in which it was used just twice then "Dead as a F@#$%&g Dodo !!!!!!!!!! took it back & added money to my refund & bought a new Yuasa . I'm not saying there all bad I might have been unlucky ? so I'm just sharing my experiences mate. Johny Brando

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Re: Lithium Battery?

#8 PostAuthor: needaz1100r » Mon May 01, 2017 4:59 pm

I've had good results with Motobatt myself after destroying a battery per bike per winter, which was getting a bit pricey with Harley lead acid battery's at £180 each!!
Cheers,



Mark.

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Re: Lithium Battery?

#9 PostAuthor: wheelysteve » Mon May 01, 2017 10:20 pm

I've just put one of these on my Z1B. Not quite as powerful as a motobatt, but identical in size to the original Yuasa, no acid to drip on my expensive exhausts and it's not YELLOW !!

Decent price from Halfords as well....

http://www.halfords.com/motoring/motorc ... la-battery
1975 Z1B Candy Red
1975 Dogs Z1B
1976 Z900 A4
1977 Z650B1
1978 Z650B2
1978 KZ1000D Z1R
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needaz1100r
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Re: Lithium Battery?

#10 PostAuthor: needaz1100r » Tue May 02, 2017 8:22 am

wheelysteve wrote:I've just put one of these on my Z1B. Not quite as powerful as a motobatt, but identical in size to the original Yuasa, no acid to drip on my expensive exhausts and it's not YELLOW !!

Decent price from Halfords as well....

http://www.halfords.com/motoring/motorc ... la-battery


I think the trick is looking after them, almost any battery rated for the job will work OK when new, but the issue is how much abuse they will take. My workshop is not heated, and I am sure I have killed batteries by letting them freeze and discharge.

I know a man, who because he is a semi retired motor dealer rides his bikes (Harley's) at every opportunity, summer and winter, and never replaces or charges a battery.

Because there's so many variables, it's almost impossible to use anyone's experience as a guideline, except your own. Johny had a Motobatt fail on him, I don't for a moment disbelieve him and I have had them survive when lead acid ones have failed, but was I more careful with them, knowing the possible issue?

Other issues, like no acid, or suitable for long periods of discharge, or resistance to cold come into play in differing ratios for each of us.

PS they do Motobatts in black now, and Halfords Bumper paint does a sterling job of changing a yellow one to black.
Cheers,



Mark.

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Re: Lithium Battery?

#11 PostAuthor: RALPHARAMA » Thu May 04, 2017 8:28 am

Motobatt is an AGM. The problem with Motobatt is that they are filled with acid at the factory and sealed. They used yellow as being a bit of clever marketing, setting them apart from other batteries. Yuasa AGM batteries are supplied to the dealer unfilled with an acid pack. They have to be prepared for the customer before sale which adds a leg of extra work for the retailer. From an end user's perspective this is much better and means that your battery only starts it's life when you buy it. Motobatt batteries have to wait in the factory to be purchased by a distributor, then they sit in the wholesalers until a dealer buys them, where they sit on a shelf until Fred Punter comes along and buys it. This system is very convenient for distribution and retailers, particularly online sellers, but not so good for the end user who can be buying batteries that have lived a good proportion of their life before reaching the motorcycle. In the battery trade they are known to be unreliable, which is why I don't use them.
True gel batteries are great (AGM are often thought of as gel but aren't), but will not put up with total discharge. I either use the very reasonably priced Dynavolt Gel Nano batteries distributed in the UK by Bike-It or Yuasa AGMs. Both are excellent and reliable. Both AGM and Gels have better cranking power than traditional flooded lead acid and are sealed for life
Ralph Ferrand
Z1000A1 (1977), Godier Genoud Z1300A5 (1983), Z900A4 (1976) GPZ1100 Unitrak (1983), H2C (1975), RD250B (1975)(project), ZRX1200R (2005) DT175MX (1981) YZF R6 (1999)
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rickm
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Re: Lithium Battery?

#12 PostAuthor: rickm » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:15 am

Bit of a thread revival here, but I'm just wondering what the latest opinions are on lithium ion batteries for Zeds?
Plus, there's a lot of suppliers to choose from, so can anyone recommend a particular source / make of battery?
Z1000J ELR US style, S3 400 triple

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Re: Lithium Battery?

#13 PostAuthor: RALPHARAMA » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:20 pm

The charging system on classic bikes is incompatible with lithium ion batteries.
Ralph Ferrand
Z1000A1 (1977), Godier Genoud Z1300A5 (1983), Z900A4 (1976) GPZ1100 Unitrak (1983), H2C (1975), RD250B (1975)(project), ZRX1200R (2005) DT175MX (1981) YZF R6 (1999)
http://www.bikerstoolbox.co.uk

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rickm
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Re: Lithium Battery?

#14 PostAuthor: rickm » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:27 am

RALPHARAMA wrote:The charging system on classic bikes is incompatible with lithium ion batteries.

I'd be interested to know more. Is it the charging rate or something about how it's regulated that is a problem?
Some folk (Mr Pigford?) seem to get away with it?
Z1000J ELR US style, S3 400 triple

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Taffus
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Re: Lithium Battery?

#15 PostAuthor: Taffus » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:19 am

rickm wrote:
RALPHARAMA wrote:The charging system on classic bikes is incompatible with lithium ion batteries.

I'd be interested to know more. Is it the charging rate or something about how it's regulated that is a problem?
Some folk (Mr Pigford?) seem to get away with it?

I think the compatibility statement is a bit broad. The issue as I see it is the older separate regulator and rectifier systems are less controlled. Fitting a modern combined MOSFET reg/rect will alleviate that issue.

The real issue is with the battery itself. A good one will have a Battery Management System (BMS) this manages the charge state of the individual cells within the battery, it will stop the battery becoming "bricked" by cells becoming too discharged to charge or damaged by over charging. It should also limit the battery from supplying too much current and thus catching fire (Boeing had issues with this on their new Dreamliner)
Also there is the issue of counterfeit batteries, they do exist and would be lacking in the BMS etc. Counterfeits have been an issue for computer and phone suppliers for years.

You pay your money you take your choice..........


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