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New Oil Cooler Kit - hose routing ?

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rickm
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New Oil Cooler Kit - hose routing ?

#1 PostAuthor: rickm » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:41 pm

Ok, I've been after a good oil cooler kit for the J. It's a standard motor, but (back in the day) I fried the oil in my old one and did a lot of damage to the pistons/bores on numbers 2 & 3 during a spirited motorway ride. I appreciate that modern oil is loads better, and that I'm probably not going to get the same problem again, but just thought a good-looking oil cooler would be... cool !

Kawa2.JPG


So, I was at the NEC show last November and enquired at one of the trade stands who used to make a kit for the J, but stopped doing it a few years ago. They said they could still provide me with a kit, and so I took a punt (plus it was at the reduced Show price). After a bit of a delay, said parts turned up including the black radiator, black braided hoses and the beautiful new take-off block they'd designed. It seems that if this stuff all works as it should, then they will offer full kits again (so I'm a bit of guinea pig here!).

Z1000J oil cooler take-off.jpg


My dilemma then is how best to route the hoses. I know this has been discussed before, but I'd appreciate some well-founded opinions here. When I fitted a kit to my old J (after rebuilding it with a GPZ block) I fitted an aftermarket cooler with the hoses attached at the bottom of the radiator, routed around the side of the cylinder block to the oil take-off under the carbs. With this arrangement, there was a definite audible longer delay for the oil to get around the engine on cold start-up. This is presumably because of the oil draining out of the radiator and hoses when left a while?

The standard cooler (1000R or GPZ) has hoses attached to the bottom of the radiator, but routed over the top of the engine. I've also seen aftermarket kits with the hoses coming out of the top of the radiator and then routed in various ways (presumably to overcome the oil-draining issue). I'm minded to invert the radiator, take the hoses out of the top and over the engine, through the gap between the carbs inlets and on to the take-off, thereby preventing the oil completely draining out overnight.

All comments / thoughts welcome.
Am I just being over-cautious?
Would there be a syphon effect anyway?
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Re: New Oil Cooler Kit - hose routing ?

#2 PostAuthor: zed1015 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:27 pm

Put the cooler feeds at the top of the cooler.
Oil stays in the cooler so quicker oil delivery on start up and a marginal increase in overall oil capacity.
Just remember at service time to drain the cooler of the old oil too.
Hoses go between carb rubbers and over top of engine as you have already stated.

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Re: New Oil Cooler Kit - hose routing ?

#3 PostAuthor: johny brando » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:07 am

Ditto what Rob says below.....most important is as he states your cooler remains primed !!!! & your Cam shells will thank you for that !!! If your Cooler is new = nice clean Alloy... I'd recommend that on the bottom of the Cooler body itself you drill a 8mm hole in an accessible area that appears to be of the thickest parent material to be found in that vicinity . Then after you have thoroughly ensured & used compressed to air blown through the cooler & remove any swarf....then place over that drilled hole a pre-made threaded Boss & have it Tig'd welded ..... it could be either a round or square boss and about say 10mm deep in section - ( with say a 8mm taped internal thread right through it's centre ) now = a Drain plug !!!!!!
Also when cutting your hoses to length ensure the length is long enough to enable you to be able to spread the hoses over each side of the head & this then ensures you can still remove the Cam Box for valve adjustments etc .....too short & you can't then work without drama i.e. having to disconnecting the hoses & in doing so dump oil all over the place etc.The pic attached is an old one & I cannot seem to download from the pic's on this Apple ( putor )=Norfolk tongue .......Well, on the side your looking at there in that old pic .... I have changed that hose you looking at for a Clear re-enforced one ......so you can get an instant good visual on the outlet side of the cooler - the side back into the engine. It's not that important to do.... but it gives you the peace of mind of seeing the oil initially & instantly shoot through on its way to the Top End.
You may need or also wish to make, a "winter" oil cooler "grill blanking plate".... out of say flat 3-5mm rubber ! If your cooler is quite a big volume ..then your oil might / would take a while on a cold winters day or night to get up to normal operating tempreture & you may - might then end up with some emulsified oil .... This would very much depend on the normal length of your journeys...... or you could just install it & leave it say... Nov - April each year ???
Cheers .
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Re: New Oil Cooler Kit - hose routing ?

#4 PostAuthor: rickm » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:57 am

Great and sensible advice, thanks guys.
It's strange to see so many coolers out there that must drain dry over night. Could be wrong, but most aftermarket kits seem to be designed that way.

I once fitted clear hose to a cooler kit. It looked great, but used to get very soft and flexible once warmed up, and I never fully trusted it. That was a while ago though, so I'm sure materials must be better now.
Johny, what sort / make have you used?

I'm not sure I trust myself to drill into a brand new cooler radiator to fabricate a drain plug, although it's a good way to stop the mess each time you need to change the oil.
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Re: New Oil Cooler Kit - hose routing ?

#5 PostAuthor: rickm » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:12 am

Just thinking about how a syphon works, I guess the key thing is that the high point of the hose sits above level of the radiator?
It wouldn't necessarily matter whether the hose exits from underneath, so long as it's routed over the top of the engine (or sits higher at some point) then it wouldn't passively drain out?

Or am I just talking bollox !
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Re: New Oil Cooler Kit - hose routing ?

#6 PostAuthor: zed1015 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:36 pm

It's the lowest point of the end of the hose at the engine that is the main factor.
The oil will still drain into the hoses once the syphoning starts and get drawn out of the cooler until air gets behind the flow.
When syphoning petrol from a tank the fuel get drawn upwards well above the level of the tank before being sucked down into whatever you are filling from the tank.
The flow only stops when either the fuel end gets open to the air or the exit end is lifted above the level of the fuel in the tank.
With the cooler feeds on top there is only a small amount of oil that can drain from the top of the cooler before air is introduced via the opposite hose.
With the feeds on the bottom most of the oil will syphon out.

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Re: New Oil Cooler Kit - hose routing ?

#7 PostAuthor: Julian_Boolean » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:36 pm

I've run mine over the top with no problems, when I bought the bike they ran round the side, one hose ran very close to the exhaust and probably heated the oil up, the bike certainly runs a lot cooler now, only problem you might have is a lack of space if you've still got the standard wiring loom.

BTW my takeoff looks the same as yours.
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Re: New Oil Cooler Kit - hose routing ?

#8 PostAuthor: rickm » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:26 pm

zed1015 wrote:It's the lowest point of the end of the hose at the engine that is the main factor.
The oil will still drain into the hoses once the syphoning starts and get drawn out of the cooler until air gets behind the flow.
When syphoning petrol from a tank the fuel get drawn upwards well above the level of the tank before being sucked down into whatever you are filling from the tank.
The flow only stops when either the fuel end gets open to the air or the exit end is lifted above the level of the fuel in the tank.
With the cooler feeds on top there is only a small amount of oil that can drain from the top of the cooler before air is introduced via the opposite hose.
With the feeds on the bottom most of the oil will syphon out.


Agreed, when I thought about this a bit more I realised that I was in fact talking bollox :oops:
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Re: New Oil Cooler Kit - hose routing ?

#9 PostAuthor: rickm » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:30 pm

Julian_Boolean wrote:I've run mine over the top with no problems, when I bought the bike they ran round the side, one hose ran very close to the exhaust and probably heated the oil up, the bike certainly runs a lot cooler now, only problem you might have is a lack of space if you've still got the standard wiring loom.

BTW my takeoff looks the same as yours.


I guess it may have come from a similar source, plus there's only so much functional variation in design that can occur with a machined piece like this. When I get it all fitted and working ok I'll say where it came from, and hopefully the supplier will make it available again as a kit :D

Have you got any decent pictures you could post?

Got standard wiring loom at the moment, but that will be replaced/refined as next winter's project.
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Re: New Oil Cooler Kit - hose routing ?

#10 PostAuthor: johny brando » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:28 pm

rickm wrote:
zed1015 wrote:It's the lowest point of the end of the hose at the engine that is the main factor.
The oil will still drain into the hoses once the syphoning starts and get drawn out of the cooler until air gets behind the flow.
When syphoning petrol from a tank the fuel get drawn upwards well above the level of the tank before being sucked down into whatever you are filling from the tank.
The flow only stops when either the fuel end gets open to the air or the exit end is lifted above the level of the fuel in the tank.
With the cooler feeds on top there is only a small amount of oil that can drain from the top of the cooler before air is introduced via the opposite hose.
With the feeds on the bottom most of the oil will syphon out.


Agreed, when I thought about this a bit more I realised that I was in fact talking bollox :oops:



Robs Cooler draining explanation is spot on ! .....Without wanting to go into too much unnecessary detail here...... "By design " the oil pumps twin gear set is to deliver 'flow oil' only ! There is NO return/ scavenge side to this design of pump ..... as the pump is permanently submerged in oil, it therefor doe's not require a scavenge side ( gravity sorts that out = oil self drains back to sump ) & the clever design of submerging the oil pump ensures that ..as soon as the motor turns the pumps will always be primed... BUT when the motor stops running the system is then " by static head pressure " designed to back drain the flow side through the pump into the sump ...leaving all galleries dry.......hence the un-trapped supply Cooler lines will be drained too ....BUT by having the cooler lines feeding the cooler from ABOVE !!! then the bonus is = the Cooler acts as a trap too & therefor always itself remains "primed" & when you next start the motor the trapped air slug from the outlet side of the oil pump is then ....pressurised & driven up the oil line... it immediately then compress's that air slug & pushes the oil in the cooler ahead & this then quickly delivers that oil volume to the Cam bearings to be getting on with & a second later .....they then get the full incoming volume of fresh oil. Hope that makes sense ? It is important to hang onto this fact too .....that is the system on Kawa 900/1000's is a LOW PRESSURE = just 2.8 psi - but it's a HIGH VOLUME system ( it delivers a massive volume of oil @ a very low pressure !!!!!!!! ) as such you cannot afford to drop either ...but in particular the VOLUME ... you must ensure the Cooler you use is a HIGHish VOLUME one ... this also applies to your Cooler Supply hoses. Failure in this area ( reduces volume ) & this would partially stave your top end, causing significant damage.

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Re: New Oil Cooler Kit - hose routing ?

#11 PostAuthor: rickm » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:46 am

OK, I'm convinced !!
The pipes are definitely going to come out of the top of the radiator and over the engine.
This will mean a bit of fiddling around with brackets etc, but it's got to be worth it in the end :up

I quite like the idea of clear hoses too, if I could find something up to the job i.e. heat resistant and durable.
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Re: New Oil Cooler Kit - hose routing ?

#12 PostAuthor: johny brando » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:26 pm

rickm wrote:OK, I'm convinced !!
The pipes are definitely going to come out of the top of the radiator and over the engine.
This will mean a bit of fiddling around with brackets etc, but it's got to be worth it in the end :up

I quite like the idea of clear hoses too, if I could find something up to the job i.e. heat resistant and durable.


RE-ENFORCED clear 10mm I/D is what I'm using & I have had NO issues with it ! ......it is as heat resistant as you can expect to get in this application ( of course it becomes a little bit more malleable when heated by the oil ) you can get it most places...try Halfords, or any large Motor factors, or even Yellow pages & it's recognisable by the white cross hatch strenghening lines moulded into the side walls of it. All bends should still always be as long a radius as possible to help reduce any internal frictional drag & any possibility of internal deformity . If your still concerned about strength on a bend ...all you need do is to snug up 3 or 4 cable tie's spaced say 10mm apart on any radius your concerned about ...it then cannot collapse there at all. Cheers.


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