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Engine oil

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ZedHead
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Re: Engine oil

#16 PostAuthor: ZedHead » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:53 am

PAULJAC47 wrote:Sage advice i reckon zed1015,i just stick to a good classic mineral and change it often,never had a prob.


Nothing wrong with that ...

Although, i think there is something in the fact that old engines running on mineral oil usually need rings or rebore at around 35K ish while modern engines using JASO approved synthetic oils can achieve 100K
Last edited by ZedHead on Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Engine oil

#17 PostAuthor: Charlie » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:44 pm

zed1015 wrote:There is nothing wrong with using fully synth in most engines BUT it is the roller bearing crank in these and others that fully synth is not friendly as it allows the rollers to skid at much lower rpms which causes premature wear.
If you are going to use fully synth in a Z then it must be specifically formulated for roller bearing cranks such as Rock oil TRM 20/60 .
The clutch slip thing is another issue and it has been shown that while not causing clutch slip it does show up plate wear and allow slippage much earlier .
This is the reason why people have experienced clutch slip when changing from mineral or semi to fully synth and then on changing back the slip disappears.



Sorry, but you are wrong.

Fully synthetic oil in general is just better than semi or mineral or synth fortified oils. It does not need "special properties" for roller bearings or plain bearings, small end bearings or any other type of bearing. It already has multiple additives and friction modifiers precisely to allow it to cope with extremes of pressure and temperature. At least the reputable ones do.

Personally I would not use Rock Oil in my lawnmower - they are one of the guilty parties claiming they meet the JASO standard but have not submitted any product to be certified. Why the hell should I trust any product like that ? (rhetorical)

As to TRM 20/60 - it is a RACE oil and by their own description designed to be used in a competitive environment. Race oils are built to have different properties to oils that will be used in a road environment. They are designed to get around the engine quickly, lube effectively but they are NOT designed for longevity. They should be dropped and changed after every race.

Encouraging regular users to use that is almost as dangerous as recommending they also drop sand in the crankcase to quieten things down. PLEASE guys, do not run a road engine on race oil.

The only reason anyone would see clutch slip after an oil change, irrespective of whether the new oil is semi, fully or mineral is because the contaminants holding the plates has been washed out, in other words the plates were completely on their last legs and in need of change anyway - only the filthy stuff in the motor was allowing them to cling on to life. Fully synth JASO approved oils are precisely engineered not to cause slip of their own volition. They will only allow the plates to slip when they are beyond their usable limits.

On to viscosities.

Engine manufacturers design and build engine oil galleries to carry and work with a certain weight of oil. They will run best at that viscosity. It is acceptable in some climate extremes to vary between say 10/40 and 15/50 but you should not jump to something like 20/60 unless it is recommended specifically. That viscosity will be too thick at cooler temps and too thin at high temps in an engine designed for a 10/40.

Leave race oil for race tracks.
Why do I persist in debating with idiots ? I really should know better :)

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Re: Engine oil

#18 PostAuthor: ZedHead » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:37 pm

Which oil will help me get my knee down Charlie :D

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Re: Engine oil

#19 PostAuthor: needaz1100r » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:36 pm

ZedHead wrote:Which oil will help me get my knee down Charlie :D



diesel oil on a roundabout, your knee will be closely followed by your elbow, shoulder and head :lol:
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Re: Engine oil

#20 PostAuthor: ZedHead » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:14 pm

needaz1100r wrote:
ZedHead wrote:Which oil will help me get my knee down Charlie :D



diesel oil on a roundabout, your knee will be closely followed by your elbow, shoulder and head :lol:


Ooooh nooo :cantb

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Re: Engine oil

#21 PostAuthor: lta01 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:57 pm

I'm not an oil expert, and don't profess to be. what I can tell you is this :

Over the last 15 years, I've restored and run 6 Gs1000's, a CBX, Z1300 , both Benelli sixes, Z1a, Z1r , Guzzi Lemans 3 and a few others I cant remember.

I tried Mobil 1 fully synth in nearly all of them ( bought a drum of it ). over time, I experienced weeping gasket joints and starter clutch slippage on more than half of the bikes. Ditched the fully synth, went back to semi, problems gone.

Don't ask me to explain why, I'm just passing on my real experience across a wide range of bikes , engines, cranks/bearings, etc.

I think the most telling was the starter clutch slippage, undisputable and like a light switch gone when reverting to semi synth.

I've read on many forums that fully synth is "too slippery" for older roller bearing applications. A person I do regard as a real bike expert once suggested the starter clutch issue was to do with drainage, modern engines don't pool oil in the sprag clutch area the same as older designs.

There you go.... will watch with interest.
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Re: Engine oil

#22 PostAuthor: zed1015 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:44 pm

All i can say is that my comments are from actual personal experience and not hearsay or something i copied and pasted from google or wherever..
As for Rock oil TRM, regardless of it being JASO or not, is not specifically a race oil despite that being their main marketing angle and is designed for use in roller cranked engines and Harleys being run on either road or track.
Any race bike should have it's oil changed after a short run time regardless of oil type but for road use the specified service intervals will do just fine and the TRM i've been running in my Zeds has caused no problem in the last 10 years i've been using it and there's no need to change it after every trip to the shops although i will say that running it in a stock zed is probably overkill and a waste of £50 a shot when almost any old 10/40 semi will do.

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Re: Engine oil

#23 PostAuthor: lta01 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:29 am

ZEd1015, I wasn't suggesting you ( or anyone else ) had copied and pasted or Googled. Apologies if you got that impression.
I agree with you and now use almost any 10/40 semi=synth I can get hold of. After rebuilds, I recommend people run on mineral oil to ensure good bedding in.
My experience of starter clutch slipping makes me believe that fully synth might be less suitable for roller cranks so an oil marketed specifically for roller cranks sounds sensible. In terms of brands, I've used Rock oil in the past, never had an issue and would use again.
Every oil thread seems to end on the same note......change it often, its cheaper than an engine rebuild.
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Re: Engine oil

#24 PostAuthor: zed1015 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:03 am

lta01 wrote:ZEd1015, I wasn't suggesting you ( or anyone else ) had copied and pasted or Googled. Apologies if you got that impression.

Ita01, not at all.
My post has no connection to and is not in response to yours except to state that, like you, anything I post is from actual personal experience and not something I was told by a bloke in the pub..

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Re: Engine oil

#25 PostAuthor: ZedHead » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:12 am

I have not read about the needle bearing thing before, interesting stuff.

What I can't get my head around is this.

To prevent wear the needles have to roll, which requires friction. In my simple head, this would be the same friction that causes wear :??

A weird analogy would be comparing rolling logs to build an Egyption pyramid to launching a liner on a greased slipway. The net effect is kind of the same.

I know my head works in mysterious ways :blush

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Re: Engine oil

#26 PostAuthor: needaz1100r » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:18 pm

lta01 wrote:I'm not an oil expert, and don't profess to be. what I can tell you is this :

Over the last 15 years, I've restored and run 6 Gs1000's, a CBX, Z1300 , both Benelli sixes, Z1a, Z1r , Guzzi Lemans 3 and a few others I cant remember.

I tried Mobil 1 fully synth in nearly all of them ( bought a drum of it ). over time, I experienced weeping gasket joints and starter clutch slippage on more than half of the bikes. Ditched the fully synth, went back to semi, problems gone.

Don't ask me to explain why, I'm just passing on my real experience across a wide range of bikes , engines, cranks/bearings, etc.

I think the most telling was the starter clutch slippage, undisputable and like a light switch gone when reverting to semi synth.

I've read on many forums that fully synth is "too slippery" for older roller bearing applications. A person I do regard as a real bike expert once suggested the starter clutch issue was to do with drainage, modern engines don't pool oil in the sprag clutch area the same as older designs.

There you go.... will watch with interest.


I think the starter clutch issue is the same one as roller bearings sliding, the synthetic oils have a stronger film and don't allow the starter clutch to break it down and grip. On the roller bearing issue, I feel if the oil film allows the bearings to slide, there won't be any wear, because of the oil film, if the film breaks down they would just roll again. I've built S and S Harley engines, (roller bearings, no gearbox, no clutch) and S and S themselves told me that 5w50 Mobil 1 car oil was fine in their engine - straight from the horses mouth in their technical department in the land of litigation.

Car synthetic oils are designed to run a car engine, ie shell bearings, no clutch, no gearbox, I wouldn't use them in a Jap bike engine for that reason. As stated above, there is a rating for oils designed to work with a wet clutch, the scientists that formulate this stuff are lot cleverer than me and if they say their oil is, or is not suitable to use with a clutch, I am going to believe them. Likewise for gearboxes, ie "motorcycle oil" because a gearbox gives oil a different life than the bearings of the engine.

From http://www.oilspecifications.org website...
9. 4-stroke motorcycles usually need special oils
Many people think that a 4-stroke motorcycle requires a regular motor oil like a car. Both have 4-stroke engines after all. In reality, however, in most modern motorcycles the motor oil is also responsible for lubricating the transmission and the wet clutch (my note - not a Harley). Such motorcycles need special motor oils that can perform these duties as well. Modern passenger car motor oils contain way too much friction modifier additive to be able to handle these tasks. The solution is the appropriate 4T oil that meets the motorcycle manufacturer’s specifications. In most cases this means a JASO MA type oil.

10. Motor oils usually aren’t too thin when hot but they are too thick when cold
A lot of people like to choose high viscosity grade motor oils assuming they provide better protection, especially when hot. They worry that a hot, low viscosity grade motor oil would not create a strong enough oil layer and engine wear would be more significant. The truth is, however, that most of the wear occurs at cold starts. An oil with a lower viscosity grade can provide better protection at cold start because it takes less time for it to reach its optimal viscosity (in layman’s terms thickness) so the engine runs less time not fully protected. To also address the problem of the thinner oil film at high temperatures: the oil film’s strength is not determined solely by its thickness. Modern synthetic oils provide very thin but very strong oil films. If that was not the case there could not be 0W20 and 5W20 oils at all, since they would be incapable to protect the engine with their film thickness alone.

So if you use a car fully synthetic, you clutch may well slip, the thinner film, may make you engine appear to rattle, or find it's way out of gaskets, and your starter clutch may slip (because of the high strength film).
Cheers,



Mark.

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Re: Engine oil

#27 PostAuthor: needaz1100r » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:31 pm

ZedHead wrote:I have not read about the needle bearing thing before, interesting stuff.

What I can't get my head around is this.

To prevent wear the needles have to roll, which requires friction. In my simple head, this would be the same friction that causes wear :??

A weird analogy would be comparing rolling logs to build an Egyption pyramid to launching a liner on a greased slipway. The net effect is kind of the same.

I know my head works in mysterious ways :blush



The friction causes them (needles, balls or rollers) to not slide, because they won't slide, they roll, because they roll, there is no grinding of parts together to induce wear.

I picture it as - put a metal cylinder on a piece of sandpaper and push it and it will roll, no friction, no wear, stop it rolling and push it, the wear is immense in comparison, but if you put, let's say a film of grease on the sandpaper and pushed it without roiling, there wouldn't be any wear either, because it's not touching the sandpaper.

The rollers or the oil (or the grease on the slipway), keep the parts away from each other, in both cases eliminating friction between the moving parts.

But the point load of an individual roller within the bearing is minute, so it will wear the race. However, the bearing is a service part, it is there to protect the two parts it keeps apart (eg, crank and conrod), just like the oil in a shell bearing.
Cheers,



Mark.

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Re: Engine oil

#28 PostAuthor: Charlie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:44 pm

I was away for the last few days, but if the comment about pasting from Google was intended for me either- i can assure you the comments were my own.

Dont over complicate things, dont pull information from US sites where the oils can be very different (in many cases) to what we Europeans use.

Use whatever oil you wish - if that is Castrol GTX - then so be it. Any oil is better than no oil, for a limited period of time at least. Longer term is different.

Believe, disbelieve it - it is your choice. I can state categorically though and from a position of a fair amount of knowledge that fully synthetic JASO MA or MA2 certified oil is perfectly fine for a wet clutch motorcycle engine.

Leave race oils for the race tracks and stay within the viscosity range suggested by the engine manufacturer and you will be OK. Viscosity and JASO certification are more important than the synthetic grading
Why do I persist in debating with idiots ? I really should know better :)

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Re: Engine oil

#29 PostAuthor: ZedHead » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:33 pm

Charlie wrote:I was away for the last few days, but if the comment about pasting from Google was intended for me either- i can assure you the comments were my own.

Dont over complicate things, dont pull information from US sites where the oils can be very different (in many cases) to what we Europeans use.

Use whatever oil you wish - if that is Castrol GTX - then so be it. Any oil is better than no oil, for a limited period of time at least. Longer term is different.

Believe, disbelieve it - it is your choice. I can state categorically though and from a position of a fair amount of knowledge that fully synthetic JASO MA or MA2 certified oil is perfectly fine for a wet clutch motorcycle engine.

Leave race oils for the race tracks and stay within the viscosity range suggested by the engine manufacturer and you will be OK. Viscosity and JASO certification are more important than the synthetic grading


What he said :D


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