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1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

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ZedHead
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#31 PostAuthor: ZedHead » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:53 pm

PJONO wrote:Sump off. No debris to speak of. Usual sludge. Checked oil pump-all good. Had a good look up and at the clusters but nothing obvious. Full gearbox ordered from States just in case. Put it back together. Programmed for strip down in New Year.


I am struggling to see how it can be coming from the gearbox if it continues with the clutch disengaged. Unless I am missing something

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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#32 PostAuthor: baz » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:58 am

ZedHead wrote:
PJONO wrote:Sump off. No debris to speak of. Usual sludge. Checked oil pump-all good. Had a good look up and at the clusters but nothing obvious. Full gearbox ordered from States just in case. Put it back together. Programmed for strip down in New Year.


I am struggling to see how it can be coming from the gearbox if it continues with the clutch disengaged. Unless I am missing something


and me !

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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#33 PostAuthor: Philippe » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:12 am

Hi Guys
when the engine is running the clutch basket is turning. It doesn't matter if a gear is engaged or not.
Perhaps that's the source of the noise. Maybe a worn clutch needle bearing???
Time will tell.
GrtZ
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1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#34 PostAuthor: PJONO » Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:21 pm

Hi Guys...See how this problem is luring you in!! All told a strip down and engine cases split is the only way. Only be happy when I've done that now. If I do/when I find the source of the problem I'll create a quiz. Then suggestions can made re the discovered fault-with Kudos being the prize for the winner. A sort of screwed up Cluedo.

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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#35 PostAuthor: Pigford » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:00 pm

At least you don't have to disturb the top-end...…

Just flip the motor over & rip the bottom casing off & have a play!

Good luck,
And on the 7th day... Zeds were created!

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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#36 PostAuthor: ZedHead » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:57 pm

You mentioned the frequency and volume does not change with revs. It is not something daft like a lose bolt somewhere is it? Possibly engine mounts or even the one of the two bolts at the end of the head? Or maybe cam end float which is common on zeds. Another left field thought.... has a previous owner fitted an O ring chain and not spaced the front sprocket to stop it touching the casing.

I often find the strangest to explain things have a very simple explanation. If it ain't broke don't fix it

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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#37 PostAuthor: PJONO » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:40 pm

Thanks for your thoughts.The noise is certainly a rotating noise at a significantly lower frequency than the varying road / sprocket speed. It does rise in agreement but always at a lower frequency. It's not a rattle or noise independent of the functioning engine internals.

Interested in your Cam end float theory . Presumably this can be identified by examining the four cam shaft bearing clamps?

Certainly the O ring chain spacing has been a problem at some time in this bikes history the/a sprocket /chain set up has been responsible for seriously grinding down the inner sprocket cover fasteners.

Historically these conditions can't have helped the gearbox bearings -particularly those on the output shaft. So chain and sprocket kit plus spacers here we come. (Think you've got them on offer)

The drive chain also possesses a serious tight spot from between o-like 35-40 mm town to 5 mm on another section of the chain.

Anyway, contrary to common sense and the wife's suggestion that we should go for a post Christmas- pre New Year Walk, I've commenced the tear down of the engine. Top end barrels and piston now off. Side cases off. Just got sprocket cover to remove and lift the bottom end out and the I'm on my way in. I'm reasonably convinced that the source of the noise will reveal itself- hopefully anyway!!

Crank seems okay with no up and down play though a bit of lateral on the rods.

I want to have a really good trot through the motor anyway now.Will report in due course.

Thanks for all your help and thoughts-

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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#38 PostAuthor: ZedHead » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:10 am

I am watching with interest :pop

Cam end float is more of a metallic knock, it is always from the inlet cam, axial movement of the exhaust being restricted by the tacho drive. You could measure the cam cap thrust face gaps but in the end it does no harm.

Good call to replace the input and output bearings. Although, since the noise continues with the clutch disengaged they are unlikely suspects.

Your chain and sprockets are definitely 'goosed'. The 630 kit I sell comes with the later front sprocket with inner spacing boss, no other spacing required here but you may want to add a rear spacer.

Can you post some pictures of the strip down?
Last edited by ZedHead on Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#39 PostAuthor: Ultim8pc » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:43 pm

Measuring everything up as per factory manual will show up any issues. and anything major will usually be apparent without measuring in my experience.
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Keyster rebuild kits & carburettor spares - airscrews, jets, needles, starter plungers & gaskets.
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#40 PostAuthor: Pigford » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:51 pm

As mentioned, cam end-float is a tingy metallic noise, often more apparent when bike over on sidestand, not uncommon & nowt to worry about.

Get some photo's going :up
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#41 PostAuthor: PJONO » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:15 pm

So tempted to lift the motor out but it's New Years Eve but I'll get murdered. Sprocket nut and clutch nuts off.
I cannot believe how good the proper hand held impact drivers are. Seconds, truly seconds to get them off.

I'll load up any images of relevance. I've maintained the thread in hope of helping current and future members diagnostic efforts.

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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#42 PostAuthor: kev edwards » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:20 pm

You can also get a metallic noise from the cam buckets if worn, but just like the end float on the cams it's nothing to get overly worried about, my own has an intermittent noise from cam end float even though the head is a rebuilt one from a well respected engine builder, it's something that they get.

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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#43 PostAuthor: z1bman » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:54 pm

have you checked the movement of the starter gear? if this is not shimmed correctly it will make a noise similar to crank end float & will not be constant ?

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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#44 PostAuthor: PJONO » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:41 pm

Hi,

Happy New Year folk.

Well engine out and crank case bottom removed. Nothing catastrophic immediately identified. Good and bad that really!

CLUTCH.
Checked the springs in the rear of the clutch hub. Several are loose. The thinner gauge springs are still firm and have spring action left and don't rattle. The thicker gauge springs were very loose-ratting in the apertures. There is flattening on their sides suggesting they've been rubbing somewhere. No evidence of rubbing on cases or elsewhere though.

Considering the clutch was running with one spring tower broken off for god knows how long, maybe this is the suspect area .

CRANK.
Clutch needle bearing intact. All other bearings seem to be okay. Examination of con rod three big end has marginally more movement/wiggle to it but not dramatic. Not had crank totally out yet to check bearings

STARTER CLUTCH.
Z1Bman- Thanks for you're thoughts. I have now had the opportunity to view the back of the starter clutch as I've left it on the crank for the ,moment. -The section with the Allen bolts in. There are what maybe contact marks on there. I have had this off recently and changed the rollers and springs. The spacer and rubber were seemingly okay and intact and there appeared to be sufficient clearance.

Thoughts welcome- Could the clutch be the source of the issue? Think the crank could do with a closer look over

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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#45 PostAuthor: z1bman » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:07 pm

there are two copper spacers in the starter clutch one fits on the crank the other is inside the clutch which comes in three different sizes. the drive clutch will certainly need repairing with new springs & rivets or replace it with a used one


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