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Charging

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Al
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Charging

#1 PostAuthor: Al » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:33 am

Posted here because its a bit specific to particular scenarios'.
Problem; charging and overcharging.
Did some experiments at Cadwell that i had tried out when sprinting etc. Removing the alternator but ultimately just removing the magnet body and keeping the starter motor gear bolted to the core. Cadwell showed that the effect is very noticeable, more so on a circuit track because there is a slow down and speed up component that does not occur with sprinting / drag racing. The change in performance is very addictive indeed, the down side is that even using a charger / remote charging system (leisure battery/ inverter /battery charger) between sessions you are on a gentle downward slope ref. battery voltage. A 12v battery fully charged will only supply enough to marginally run the ignition and coils for twenty mins let alone an endurance race or open pit lane at trackdays.
Having discussed an overcharging issue with Electrex World but also having had lengthy discussions with those that were at Cadwell ref. undercharging, a possible alternative was forthcoming. Run the standard set-up with the three phase alternator but with one phase disconnected. Sounds perfectly logical even simplistic but if you dont do electrics like me its a revelation. Just tried it at Snetterton this week and whilst not as rewarding as the 'no alternator' scenario the benefits are definitely noticeable and useable.
Voltage from the alternator (voltage available to coils and ignition module) is still between 13.5 and 14.5 volts but the alternator imposes approx. 1/3 less 'draw' on the engine and the waste heat is not present any longer witnessed by the cooler running Reg / Rec.
The no alternator (flywheel missing) option has a significant benefit with enhanced engine braking which with marginal brakes is a very welcome addition. Gear changing is quickened because revs fall away much faster and of course the engine runs up like a two stroke, albeit a big fat one! If you have the 'Wired George' relay mod as i do (cant for the life of me think of a reason to justify it now for my set-up, meaning there are no longer any lights or electrical ancilliaries) then 17 volts of overcharging gets fed directly to the coils and ignition module and expensive stuff gets cooked.
From the chin wagging with Electrex it turns out that they do what they call a 'Low Power Unit' http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/RR152.html (here's an example of one type, there are several) which is significantly cheaper than standard or just use the std Reg / Rec with one yellow wire pulled out.
Anyway it was all leading somewhere, didnt know where, until i came to the inevitable conclusion that what i needed was this; http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog ... ystem.html so i ordered one. :D Very popular in France apparently not at all in the UK i heard. Should have done it years ago. Its the marginally more expensive version that allows you to keep the starter motor which for me is a must have.
No swopping batteries between sessions, no remote batteries, no inverters, no battery chargers, no petrol generators, no drill batteries, no flywheel (to speak of) no overheating regulator, no scraping alternator cases round corners, no fuss.

AL
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Re: Charging

#2 PostAuthor: zed1015 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:20 pm

Basically the same race alt as I put on the café with the same advantage and effect on performance of the lighter rotor which as you now know has to be experienced to appreciate.
Hope this version doesn't have the same stator/rotor alignment and subsequent charging issues that was/is present on the open version which I had to rectify myself when they failed to acknowledge the fault.
Also watch that the extractor thread in the rotor (if it has them) doesn't bottom out on the end of the crank preventing the rotor to seat on the crank taper ( another fault I had to cure myself :evil: )
Other than that it's been faultless for the past 3 or so years.

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Re: Charging

#3 PostAuthor: Al » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:12 pm

Agree Rob and i know that Brian1100 just bought one for the 1100R the same as the one i intend to, but it had bits missing and there aint a lot to it.
The extractor was absent, the standard centre fixing bolt is too long and the outer cover appears not to come with a gasket! Its also not obvious what torque setting to use for the bolt as this does not feature in the fitting instructions.
He cut down the original bolt, glued the cover on (hub cap from a MK1 Escort) and eventually they sent the extractor.
WRT torque setting; he used a reduced value so as not to crush the magnet rotor core. Standard is a massive 116 lbs /ft and i think he said around 80 lbs/ ft and its been fine.
I think the difference with this one compared to yours and Martins' is that for the extra £100 you get to keep the starter motor and the unit itself has the cover provided (see above where they probably get them) so its fully sealed. I think it all runs in oil so the difficulties you both encountered arn't there with this version. Hope not anyway or i'll be over to Reading on a day out.
Another bonus is i dont have to take this bastard great thing every time i leave the house :D
IMG_0530.JPG


Here's a pic of his one fitted. We both intend to have the inner cover painted black!
Gen-01-2.jpg


AL
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Re: Charging

#4 PostAuthor: Coose » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:32 am

Here is an interesting article which describes how three types of regulator/rectifiers work. Al's current set-up is similar to the second type.

http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/technical-articles/how-motorcycle-charging-system-works

I have been discussing this with Al, where I think that his overvoltage issues are due to a fault in the design of the Electrexworld regulator. His alternator AC voltage between phases is fine and the loom is as simple as you can get, but still the regulator throws out 17+vdc unless one of the phases is disconnected. This makes me question how and from where exactly the regulator is monitoring the voltage? I suspect across any two of the alternator phases.
Considering he's using an Electrexworld alternator you would think that it should all work together...

Pulling one of the phases would make me question the quality of the DC output from the regulator and the long-term effect on the battery, though as Al says the reduced drag on the alternator was noticeable!

I would recommend that anyone looking to keep a stock alternator but replace their regulator/rectifier use a Shindengen FH020 5-wire type. These are standard fitment on a lot of modern Japanese bikes, and run a lot cooler due to the faster switching of the MOSFET transistors in the regulator. I also suspect that the voltage monitoring is on the DC side, therefore at the correct point to maintain the battery voltage. It would mean wiring mods, but it's certainly worth it!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/311694049342

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Re: Charging

#5 PostAuthor: Al » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:39 pm

Thanks for that Coose just what i was about to say. Wink.

RPKS 3112 the good the bad and the ugly;
Stripped off the old alternator and cover.
Mounted the new drive flange with the original starter clutch and decided it needed lapping in.
After lapping it in i found that the free wheel wasn't and then that i was missing a very large diameter shim from between the starter clutch and the new drive flange. Never had one before but found one laying about so used it and got the right clearance for the freewheel to do just that.
With the new tiny rotor mounted to the drive flange it was apparent that the centre bolt was too long so i trimmed 7mm of its length.
Now discovered because the new rotor assembly is shorter that the original the plain shank of the bolt hit the threads in the end of the crank.
No problem i'll just add a washer as i dont have a 12x1.25mm die.

This is the standard J rotor with the magnet body removed.
IMG_20170709_173335.jpg



This is the EW drive flange and tiny internal permanent magnet rotor.
IMG_20170805_124616.jpg


So looking about i noticed that the original outer casing has a 'blind' cast boss which blocks off the main oil feed gallery which runs along the back of the barrels in the crankcases.
The new EW one does not. Worse; its where the wiring grommet for the output has been placed.
Had a quick reality check and pm'd Rob zed1015 and he agreed that
with it left open the full flow of the pump would just empty itself into the new casing and short circuit back to the sump!

Cross drilled oil feed gallery.
IMG_20170730_132918.jpg


Screwdriver pointing to 'blind' boss which blanks off the gallery.
IMG_20170730_133553.jpg


Above it is the EW race alternator with the wiring grommett in the location where the boss should be.

At this point i e-mailed EW and they replied;

You have made an interesting observation and certainly we have overlooked the oilway.
However we have had no reports of premature engine failure after fitting this kit and the only spares supplied have been crash related indicating quite a few racing miles being put in.
Normally the alternator would get a low pressure feed for cooling so maybe there is a pressure control valve within this oilway in the engine.?


Yes
No???
and No!!

They now wont reply to my e-mails which is more than a little disappointing since i pointed out that £700 is a lot for something that will likely blow the engine up.
The fact that others have raced it and had no problems confused me and made me think that i might have misjudged the situation until i looked up some archive pictures of the race kit and discovered that the original version had the wiring coming out of the rounded outer cover and presumably that had caused them some issues that prompted them to make a fatal design change with subsequent fundamental flaws.

Rob zed 1015 had suggested a bung or plug for the gallery and that is what i have done.
Fortunately for me we have a lathe at work but had that not been the case and likewise for others there would have been another cost implication.

Here is the plug made up
IMG_0535.JPG



And fitted. Made up a simple holder for the rotor as there is nothing to grip whilst tightening / loosening the bolt
IMG_20170805_125308.jpg


Using a bung in this way requires that the gasket be cut down to fit round it not under it.
Last edited by Al on Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Charging

#6 PostAuthor: Al » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:55 pm

IMG_20170826_122957.jpg


Painted matt black but that didnt work so stripped it.
IMG_20170730_134637.jpg


Painted gloss black. That didnt work either so will be stripped and get satin eventually!!
IMG_20170826_123008.jpg


It runs at about 11.5 volts into the battery at 1500RPM and about 12.6 volts into the battery above about 4000 RPM so ideal for racing and prolonged periods of higher revs. I think its over 13volts above 6000RPM but battery died finally whilst on test so will have to re-do with the other battery.
The REG REC does not get hot or even warm and this weekend will be the first time i can use it properly ; bung, bolt, gasket, paint and new wiring etc.

Never did get any instructions with it nor the puller / extractor, no advice about torque settings and no mention of the standard bolt being inappropriate.
I offered to supply them with photos, dimensions, crank casings and or original alternator cover, drawings for the bung or anything else they wanted and they have declined to reply.

IMG_20170827_103127.jpg


Its somewhat similar to the timing side now so gives a much more balanced appearance.
IMG_20170806_170324.jpg


Roll on Sunday.

AL
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Re: Charging

#7 PostAuthor: Robw » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:38 pm

Hi Al, thanks for the information. I will hang on to see how you get on with riding it. The cover is a bit naff, I would have thought they could have come up with something that doesn't look like a hat the Smash alien would wear. It's a shame they are not replying to your emails, especially after you spent time speaking to the boss.
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Re: Charging

#8 PostAuthor: Coose » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:30 pm

That's a bit of a ropey response from EW, certainly when you consider the cost of the kit and the potential carnage had you not blocked the gallery. You would have thought that they would respond to your constructive feedback and the information that you supplied with regard to the plug, particularly when the kit as supplied is not fit for purpose - as you deduced and Rob clearly supported your cam bearings would have lasted minutes...

But, hopefully the modified kit will now do what you want.

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Re: Charging

#9 PostAuthor: Ginger Bear » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:27 pm

Very interesting reading there Al. Thanks for taking the time to share it all with us.
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Re: Charging

#10 PostAuthor: tlc » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:29 pm

I agree with Steve here Al.
All very interesting and to have a 2 stroke like response from the engine sounds intriguing.
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Re: Charging

#11 PostAuthor: KWACKERZ1 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:36 pm

Cracking report well detailed. When I am feeling flush I might have to talk this through with you and scrounge some help.

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Re: Charging

#12 PostAuthor: Al » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:05 pm

mqdefault.jpg
mqdefault.jpg (9.13 KiB) Viewed 431 times


Clearly its not fit and forget, you need to be very hands on with this one initially. Phoned them again and not the slightest interest in contacting me back which is odd because when i met the owner you couldnt have wished to speak with a more helpful or informative character.
Reading between the lines there are spares available; i think the permanent magnet rotor and stator are from a 125 / 250 Maico or something similar,.. REG REC is listed as a spare part and i was told that you cant use any of their standard types, only this one which they supply with the kit. Its a five wire; three in and two out.
The inner cover and outer cover are unique as is the drive flange. I cant see why with a drive flange with the correct taper, it couldn't be used for the early engines as they currently only list this for the J style motor! Drive flange is a very simple bit of turning for someone who knows what they are doing.
Speaking to Brian about the extractor; when it eventually arrived it was useless. It has an (approximately) 10mm screw in it with a point at the end. This plays directly on the threads in the end of the crank. I guess if you slackened but didnt remove the centre fixing bolt you could butt the screw against that to get the flange off but would still need a holder of some description.

All very interesting and to have a 2 stroke like response from the engine sounds intriguing.

Went out on it Sunday to Odiham and it rained all day and every session was soaking. I opened the throttle full bore on the entrance to the runway on one session and it stepped out at 45 degrees. Yikes. Should have high sided me off but luckily it didn't snap back to the middle,..... it went 45 degrees across to the other side! I fishtailed up the first 50 metres at about seventy in the pouring rain!!! It was over before i knew what was happening.

I used this to make the 'holder' which i will modify in due course. I will still need it to make the extractor at some point.

IMG_0538.JPG


When I am feeling flush I might have to talk this through with you and scrounge some help.


Let me know phil. I had no issues with it what so ever. It ran perfectly and so did the engine. No oil control problems, no overheating and no under /over-charging, no rotor's coming off the crank. All went well as a test just a shame it wasnt dry to see what its really like.

AL
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Re: Charging

#13 PostAuthor: Robw » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:26 pm

Cheers for the update Al. A lot to think about, certainly worth the hassle by the look of things. Just in the process of stripping a spare engine, so may look at one in the future.
Rob
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Re: Charging

#14 PostAuthor: marlin » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:37 pm

to robw , i have the full self generating cdi unit by them the rpks-3112 they are just short of £600 i have a unit bought by zed1015 was used for 10 minutes then he swapped units if any good to you leave me a message cheers marlin

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Re: Charging

#15 PostAuthor: ZedHead » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:16 am

Fascinating read thanks for posting


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