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1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

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johny brando
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#61 PostAuthor: johny brando » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:08 am

PJONO wrote:Crank shaft sent away for check and report.See what it throws up. So that's now a bit of waiting game now. Will install new gearbox bearings and new clutch roller bearing to current gearbox. By doing this I feel I've covered all bases. It's a bike I intend to keep and ride for some years so it's fair enough. Will continue saga in due course. Theres other stuff I can be doing in the meantime. I typically like to do things/repairs in sequence as opposed to concurrently. Never know where the fault is if you've done loads of work -particularly electrical. Someone offering a brand spanking crank NOS on eBay £1295!


I'd be having a very close look at the clutch cush drive too.....nows the time while the cases are apart - if the springs rattle ...it's 40+ years old ,tired / buggered & apparently Buzzard has the means to now to get in & out & fit the new correctly rated progressively springs in the correct order . Plus as Rob zed1015+ stated ensure your Starter sprag gear float is set up correctly = a slight drag on it when revolved ( 3 different rubber damper sizes are available & you can adjust that too if needed..... with the use of a Sheet of Glass & some 400 grit paper ) Happy hunting, Cheers Johny B.

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PJONO
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#62 PostAuthor: PJONO » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:23 pm

Hi,
The larger gauge 'cush' springs were free rattling in the clutch basket' .They were loose side to side by 2-3 mm. Have changed the clutch basket now.. The ones in the replacement unit are pretty tight. They will turn but no side to side play in them.

In respect of the starter drive -the noise wasn't anywhere in that area and all looks good there. The noise was deeper in the gearbox -thinking the basket. It would be consistent with the frequency of the noise which was at a lower speed than power going through the gearbox. Hoping I've sorted it. Time will tell. Suspect the crank check and repair is going to drag-on was told three weeks . Looks as though its going to be longer.
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johny brando
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#63 PostAuthor: johny brando » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:17 pm

PJONO wrote:Hi,
The larger gauge 'cush' springs were free rattling in the clutch basket' .They were loose side to side by 2-3 mm. Have changed the clutch basket now.. The ones in the replacement unit are pretty tight. They will turn but no side to side play in them.

In respect of the starter drive -the noise wasn't anywhere in that area and all looks good there. The noise was deeper in the gearbox -thinking the basket. It would be consistent with the frequency of the noise which was at a lower speed than power going through the gearbox. Hoping I've sorted it. Time will tell. Suspect the crank check and repair is going to drag-on was told three weeks . Looks as though its going to be longer.


Good call changing out the clutch basket that was a good move !...& the newer one sounds to be OK with better free spring / pre-load lengh . If your crank is being checked out with SEP @ Kegworth it is well worth the wait ..they were always ' really good' & did a great complete Z1 Crank rebuild & pin weld for me many years ago . I'd still also check out your Starter sprag clearance & it's correct assembly + the 3 Roller pins spring lengths & there condition.... as it would be sound preventative protection & easier to do this now while you have the motor apart . Seems like you'll have a nice motor when you have finished it . Cheers Johny B .

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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#64 PostAuthor: PJONO » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:07 pm

Hi Thanks for your thoughts. Replaced the starter springs and associated bearings prior to strip down. Crank gone to Chris Applebee who comes well recommended from many people. He has had a 'glance' only at the crankshaft and at this time and believes a couple of the rods are on the loose side. He's been asked to strip it and report. Assuming what's found isn't way over the top financially I'll have it refurbished. I've replaced all the gearbox bearings, clutch bearing , cam chain wheels and chain and if the crank's done properly I believe I covered all bases.
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#65 PostAuthor: PJONO » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:42 pm

AND THE PROBLEM WAS/IS. -....... (Well almost certainly anyway) a collapsed cage roller bearing that was still held in the big end but already in pieces..

Crankpin.jpg

Not helped either by the cam chain crank cog that appears to have lost part of several teeth. Though not immediately obvious until a side view could be obtained!!

camcog.jpg

Pleased I've found the issue. Full crank refurbishment underway. It's fair to say these cranks are robust but by no means infallible :happy

Some pretty good good engineers familiar with cranks in general looked at this and it managed to elude them. The rod didn't exhibit any vertical movement and was still in tolerance with side-play. There was no 'grumble or roughness to the bearing when turning. Glad it's identified as full collapse was obviously on the cards and could've been pretty catastrophic.
Last edited by PJONO on Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#66 PostAuthor: Philippe » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:17 pm

Hi PJONO
I've never seen that before! What happened to that engine in the past? We'll never know...anyway you found the problem and it'll be solved.
Good luck .
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PJONO
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#67 PostAuthor: PJONO » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:12 pm

Hi Phillipe,

Here's hoping I have. Only the first run up will confirm !!!
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#68 PostAuthor: z1bman » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:15 pm

i cannot believe that any of the people who have inspected that crank didn't detect any abnormal wear in that rod

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PJONO
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#69 PostAuthor: PJONO » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:36 pm

Chris Applebee upon his initial exam of that particular rod mentioned it was looser than the others upon examining the crank when complete. Guess he sees these cranks daily. Believe me, to the uninitiated, there was no perceptible vertical play, probably due to the the bearing cage still doing its job and further kept in situ by both the big end itself and clamped by the crank counter weight and spacers either side. The lateral movement when I measured it was 0.38mm. Book gave limit of 0.5mm. There was a little bit of a wobble but not a worrying amount. The crank when spun in the cases didn't indicate a roughness. Clearly under power a different story, I hope!!!

Be good to know how it came to be like that - Don't believe it can simply wear like that. The teeth chipped off the cam cog may offer a clue.

Just glad I sent the crank away for strip down.
Last edited by PJONO on Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#70 PostAuthor: Wrigers » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:23 pm

I've got mine with Mr Appleby at the moment. This will be the 3rd He's done for me, not cheap but i think a must if your not sure of the bikes history. Glad you got to the issue eventually.

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gpjes
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#71 PostAuthor: gpjes » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:13 pm

Waaa naanna wee wee I said crank, do I win a prize ho ho but seriously, it actually ran like that, wot a great motor! :luv
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ADRIAN H
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#72 PostAuthor: ADRIAN H » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:18 pm

Good the faulty bearing was found. Fingers crossed there wont be owt else wrong.
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PJONO
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#73 PostAuthor: PJONO » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:38 pm

Had the head apart. Needs four inlet guides and valves plus an exhaust valve to properly sort the head. Odd that the inlet valves should wear heavily and not the exhausts. Theres not a lot else I can change. Anyway should be a good motor after that. Plan on keeping and riding the bike.

Worse thing I've done is keep a spreadsheet of what I've spent on it. Its the odd tenners and fifteen quids that add up!- the whimsical oh "might as well have them they'll make it better" purchases that mount up
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guzziman56
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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR

#74 PostAuthor: guzziman56 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:48 am

PJONO wrote:the whimsical oh "might as well have them they'll make it better" purchases that mount up

I know that one!
1976 KZ1000A1, 1981 KZ1100 Shaft+Steib TR500 sidecar (ongoing), 1942 Motoguzzi 600U, 1948 Moto Guzzi GTV, 1952 Moto Guzzi Ercole (in bits), 1953 Nimbus, 1986 Moto Guzzi V65 Lario (in need of TLC), 1988 Moto Guzzi Mk V Le Mans

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Re: 1973 Z1-NOISE IN MOTOR- THE REBUILD

#75 PostAuthor: PJONO » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:26 am

download/file.php?mode=view&id=10951
Well the crank is back. Fully refurbished- a thing of beauty. Already in bike. Rebuild straightforward to date. Cylinders and pistons on Friday. Get crucified if I do them tomorrow as its Valentine's day.

Replaced all inlet valves and guides in head along with exhaust valve and seals. Be nice to get bike up and running. Do possess a certain amount of trepidation that I press the starter -it starts and the noise remains!!

I have to say the engine is a delight to work on having spent ages working on old Harley's- (I've heard ALL the jokes-so don't bother) Bloody time vampires though these motorcycles I go in the garage honestly believing what I need to do will be an hour max- Three hours later................
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