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Z1000a1 valves and part numbers

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Mr Bump
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Z1000a1 valves and part numbers

#1 PostAuthor: Mr Bump » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:56 pm

Hi, looking around for new genuine valves for a standard 1977 z1000A1.

I'd also be interested in hearing comments/suggestions/advice for cheaper aftermarket ones (eg vesrah), just in case.

I'm a bit puzzled about part numbers -

Kawasaki.com gives exhaust as 12005-009, inlet as 12004-017.

Cmsnl gives exhaust as 12004-1010, inlet as 12005-1009. I think the cmsnl numbers are correct. Can anyone confirm this?

Many thanks.

Olly
'In your twenties you think you are immortal, in your thirties you hope you are immortal, in your forties you just hope it doesn't hurt too much'

Lemmy

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#2 PostAuthor: zed1015 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:21 pm

Get APE/Manley etc stainless valves, best value for money.
The do std sizes and o/s.
They are stronger and cheaper than OEM, better quality and personally I have found that the pattern ones are shite with many out of spec (collet groove to high/low etc)
Also if you bend a stainless one you can straighten it as they are one piece but the oem have friction welded heads which can fracture and drop off.
Also your differing part numbers may denote the difference between the early square collet groove and the later round.

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#3 PostAuthor: Mr Bump » Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:25 pm

zed1015 wrote:Get APE/Manley etc stainless valves, best value for money.
The do std sizes and o/s.
They are stronger and cheaper than OEM, better quality and personally I have found that the pattern ones are shite with many out of spec (collet groove to high/low etc)
Also if you bend a stainless one you can straighten it as they are one piece but the oem have friction welded heads which can fracture and drop off.
Also your differing part numbers may denote the difference between the early square collet groove and the later round.


Thanks, that's a good suggestion - I see a uk specialist can supply kibblethwaite valves for £25 each - Would you recommend these? If not, could you recommend a good supplier of APE valves?

Would there be anything I'd need to know about installing stainless valves that's different to 'normal' - like a specific lapping process or something?

Thanks for your help.

Olly
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#4 PostAuthor: zed1015 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:34 am

Kibblewhite stuff is quality and up there with the APE etc.
Debbens or Suzuki spares etc can supply the APE stuff.
Fitting them is no different to the OEM valves.

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#5 PostAuthor: Mr Bump » Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:06 am

That's good. Thanks for the advice. Judging by your bike build posts you definately know what you're talking about, so stainless valves it is!

Olly
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Lemmy

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Re:

#6 PostAuthor: Mr Bump » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:30 am

zed1015 wrote:Kibblewhite stuff is quality and up there with the APE etc.
Debbens or Suzuki spares etc can supply the APE stuff.
Fitting them is no different to the OEM valves.


Fact check: I probably misenterpreted this and did fit kibblewhite stainless valves into a std z1000a head. Don’t!

Had to pull the head apart 300 miles later cos it cracked and found that the valve stems were scored. According to Buzzard it’s because the stems are phospor bronze so have a high iron content and gall the stainless. You can tell if they’re phospor broze because a magnet sticks to them.

Also had odd extreme wear on all valve shims, many of which were genuine kawasaki, which may or may not be related.

You need brass guides with stainless valves.

Probably good that the head cracked before something really nasty and expensive happened. Replacement head now with buzzard for reconditioning.

Olly
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Re: Z1000a1 valves and part numbers

#7 PostAuthor: zed1015 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:21 am

The stock Z1000A head has cast iron guides and the Kibblewhite valves have hard chrome plated stems which should have caused no problems and was the basis of my answer.
Kibblewhite supply both cast iron and Bronze guides for use with their valves depending on intended use and application.
Phosphor Bronze guides were used in the early z1 heads not the 1000's and those were prone to excessive wear and soon discontinued.
Either your head is a Z1 head or a 1000 that has had early guides wrongly fitted as replacements although these would have still worked with either stock valves or chrome stemmed stainless.
New harder wearing bronze guides are now Aluminium Bronze or Manganese Bronze and will work with any valve material..
However the unusually high wear on the shims you describe and the head cracking if it is related does not point to incompatible valve/guide materials but suggests lubrication or overly tight tolerance issues which has caused excessive heat build up.

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Re: Z1000a1 valves and part numbers

#8 PostAuthor: Mr Bump » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:35 pm

Hello,

Before I respond I’d just like to make it clear that I’m not attempting to pick a fight or point fingers, im just trying to understand where I’ve gone wrong, as I’ve clearly got some odd symptoms here. I appreciate your efforts to help me with this.

Fact check no 2: now that I’ve woken up a bit I’ve looked up the composition of phosphour bronze and its copper, tin and phosphorus and doesn't contain ferrous material, so I got mixed up there. Both heads i have therefore have cast iron valves. Apologies for any confusion.

Therefore if hard chrome will be ok on all valve guide materials, but bare stainless will gall and score on cast iron I must have ended up with kibblewhite valves that are not hard chromed, so either they are available without chrome surface, or i got a duff batch.

I doubt if the cracked head has any connection with this: there already was cracking between the valve seats (which I understand is common and rarely an issue) and the plug holes on all cylinders, all plug holes had been helicoiled too. I suspect that the crack on number 3 was already pretty large but hidden by the helicoil, then the process of skimming it flat, torquing it down, running it for the 1st time in 10 years etc caused the crack to propagate up to the top of the plug hole and out along the exhaust port. I noticed it because I could hear the compressed gas escaping around the plug seat. I expect someone helicoiling an already cracked plug thread was the root cause of the crack, along with a bit of bad luck.

I’m genuinely puzzled by the accelerated wear of the shims; every single one has worn circular grooves in the surface contacting the cam lobes. The shims are from several sources - Some were brand new kawasaki ones, so it can’t be because of cheap shims. All clearances were correct on assembly, and there were still clearances on dissasembly as all valve buckets rotated freely. There was plenty of oil about, the new cam bearings were pretty much mint on disassembly, there was no evidence of blueing of steel parts and it was running on silkolene super four 10w40, so I don’t think there was an obvious lubrication issue.

Which leaves the non-standard valves, which may have been binding and increasing the load through the valve train, but then I guess this doesn’t happen if high lift cams and stronger valve springs are used. I dunno....

I guess it just goes to show that the manufacturers made them like that for a reason, and you need to know what you are doing before you start messing about modifying stuff, especially inside engines.

Olly
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Lemmy

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Re: Z1000a1 valves and part numbers

#9 PostAuthor: buzzard » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:58 pm

Olly, what I said was stainless steel valves are not compatible with the cast iron guides you have in a Z1000 head , the head you sent me and the two types of valves ( standard Kawasaki and stainless valves) gives you two options. If you want to fit the stainless steel valves in the z1000 head you would have to remove the cast iron guides and fit ally bronze guides which would incur more cost. The standard valves will run perfectly in either ally bronze guides or the cast iron guide in your Z1000 head. If you run stainless valves in cast iron guides the stems will score alone the stem and wear quickly. Z1, Z1A , Z1B and Z90 have bronze ally guides and these wear over time quite badly especially the exhaust. Z1000 heads have cast iron and most I've seen have very little wear, in fact replacement Kawasaki guides are cast iron. I think you may have misunderstood my explanation if not I apologise. Thanks .Buzzard.
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Re: Z1000a1 valves and part numbers

#10 PostAuthor: buzzard » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:13 pm

Olly, a magnet is attracted to the Cast iron guides not the phosphorus bronze you said I quoted. Hope to get your cylinder head back from Vapour blasters next week. Buzzard.
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Re: Z1000a1 valves and part numbers

#11 PostAuthor: Mr Bump » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:11 pm

buzzard wrote:Olly, a magnet is attracted to the Cast iron guides not the phosphorus bronze you said I quoted. Hope to get your cylinder head back from Vapour blasters next week. Buzzard.


Buzzard,

Absolutely, apologies for misquoting you. My mistake. Serves me right for posting garbled messages when half asleep...

So, basically I ended up with bare stainless (not hard chromed) kibblewhite valves in cast iron guides, which as you correctly told me causes scored valve stems, proven by the damaged valves that I sent you.

Thanks for your help with this. Lesson here is don’t skimp on the research.

Olly
'In your twenties you think you are immortal, in your thirties you hope you are immortal, in your forties you just hope it doesn't hurt too much'



Lemmy


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