Carbs

[Al]

If the head gasket(s) is a standard type it will bond onto the surfaces and de-laminate when you open her up. Sorry. If its the MLS type then apparently you can re-Use them!

I follow that inlet valve stem is less likely to wear due to cooler running, but why is it more likely to leak?
P

There is negative pressure (vacuum) at the inlet valve guide and it can suck oil down the guide. There is positive pressure at the exhaust guide so more likely to contaminate the oil with exhaust gasses.
What is youre plan Phil?
If youre taking the head off you might remove the barrels and see if the oil control ring on number 3 is seated properly. If it isnt then it will pump oil and suck exhaust gasses.
Base gasket unlikely to survive sorry!
If the valve stem seals check out OK and so do the rings, have a look at the valve guides with a magnifying glass. Over-revving the J motors can result in valve guides splitting lengthwise!! No good news sorry
This all assumes you dont have an existing catastrophic carb or ignition related issue causing these problems.
AL

[Skid Mark]

If the head gasket(s) is a standard type it will bond onto the surfaces and de-laminate when you open her up. Sorry. If its the MLS type then apparently you can re-Use them! AL

Hi Al, is the MLS type a brand or is it the material used? The Vesrah gasket I used doesn't appear to be damaged, I though it might not seal if it was already torqued. If it is intacted is it possible use again?

There is negative pressure (vacuum) at the inlet valve guide and it can suck oil down the guide. There is positive pressure at the exhaust guide so more likely to contaminate the oil with exhaust gasses.
What is you're plan Phil? AL

That makes sense now about the inlet leaking. plan is: I did compression, leak down tests and got an inspection camera around the valves and the cylinder. Compression was 140,158,158,138psi. All cylinders appeared wet today even though plugs were out overnight. Oil might help the compression but eitherway I don't think I can rule out a damaged oil ring yet, so I took the head off, Timing seemed spot on, and plenty of oil getting to all cams/valves etc. I plan to remove the valve springs tomorrow evening and check the seals, If there is obvious damage or a little spring seal missing off the top of the valve seal I'll be very relieved, otherwise I'll have to strip the barrels and check oil scrapper. Then again, am I saving anything not doing that at this stage anyway?

If youre taking the head off you might remove the barrels and see if the oil control ring on number 3 is seated properly. If it isnt then it will pump oil and suck exhaust gasses.
Base gasket unlikely to survive sorry! AL

As above, don't know yet ,but when I've gone this far?

If the valve stem seals check out OK and so do the rings, have a look at the valve guides with a magnifying glass. Over-revving the J motors can result in valve guides splitting lengthwise!! No good news sorry
This all assumes you dont have an existing catastrophic carb or ignition related issue causing these problems.
AL

You don't sugar coat it do you1
Thanks again Al... How many pints do I owe you now??

[Skid Mark]

I've just took the valves of no. 3 cyl. out of the head. The seals seem fine. The valves don't fall out when the head is lifted with the collets removed.
The back of the exhaust valve is now coated in sticky tar. I presume this is part of the oil issue? does this indicate oil seeping down the stem and being burnt/baked onto the bottom portion?
I took off the barrels when I was this far. The bottom oil ring was at 7O'C, the expander was at 11O'C and the top oil ring was at 5O'C. and no obvious damage. Is the position of the oil rings to the expander as in the book critical? It says the oil rings should be slipped 30deg each side of the expander. I though I had followed the book fitting them but somewhere they have moved but I cant see what diffrence it would make unless they move closer. Could this effect the cyl. to burn oil?? I don't know what else to look at. I'm tempted to swop out the seal on the no.3 exhaust valve with the one from the vesrah gasket kit and try it.
I also looked at the guides as Al suggested, I was prepared to find a major issue, but nothing! I have picture below of the guides and the tarred valve. I am stumped.

[z1bman]

make sure the expander ring is not overlapped & that the ends of the expander have not broken

[z1bman]

to rule out the rings make four spacers out of some steel tube long enough to reach the cylinder stud thread. bolt the cylinder down with the four copper washers from the cylinder head use the outer studs to bolt it down. hook the cam chain onto a piece of tube or a screwdriver keeping the chain taught in the center & on the crankshaft sprocket. turn the engine over on the starter & you will see if any oil is leaking past the rings.you will need to have some cloth at hand to wipe away the oil that will escape from the oil feeds on the two outer studs

[Al]

Are all the valve guides sticking out of the top side of the head by the same amount if measured?
Guessing the second pic above is the number 3 exhaust guide in the port.
It looks a little short!
Maybe give them a gentle tap with a soft drift and hammer as if you were trying to take them out but with not enough force. Any that maybe loose will sound different!
Had one come loose on mine very recently and had to have an oversize one made and fitted. Thanks Buzzard.
AL

[Skid Mark]

to rule out the rings make four spacers out of some steel tube long enough to reach the cylinder stud thread. bolt the cylinder down with the four copper washers from the cylinder head use the outer studs to bolt it down. hook the cam chain onto a piece of tube or a screwdriver keeping the chain taught in the center & on the crankshaft sprocket. turn the engine over on the starter & you will see if any oil is leaking past the rings

Are all the valve guides sticking out of the top side of the head by the same amount if measured?
Guessing the second pic above is the number 3 exhaust guide in the port.
It looks a little short!
Maybe give them a gentle tap with a soft drift and hammer as if you were trying to take them out but with not enough force. Any that maybe loose will sound different!
Had one come loose on mine very recently and had to have an oversize one made and fitted. Thanks Buzzard.
AL

ZIB man, you might be on to something! I was struggling to find the end of the expander but was pretty sure I did, eye sight not being what it was. When you posted the sketch it dawned on me that it didn't look quite like it should. I had to take the piston off to get a proper look at it and sure enough the little tab on one end of the expander is missing. Good call, but is it enough to cause all that smoke? The seal looks ok, and oil can only come from the valve guides or the piston ring?

Hi Al,
I'll do this first chance I get, unfortunately I have to start earning some money to pay for this now!

[z1bman]

yes if the tag is missing that is your problem kawasaki back in the day recalled some gpz1100s that where burning oil they modified the pistons & the rings for this same reason bikes where using up to a pint of oil every 700 miles.its best to paint the tab with a bit of white paint to make sure you do not get them overlapped

[Al]

MLS (multi layer steel) head gaskets are made by Cometic as in APE, Wiseco etc etc.
They are about £80 but there is only one part, its a one piece item.
The Kawasaki two piece items are about £30 a side plus the centre 'O' ring is about £50!!!
I havnt mentioned Vesrah because for me something as critical as a head or base gasket is not somewhere i would cut a corner.

Here is an example of NOT the right one but for contact details and for an easy view of what we are talking about
https://www.suzukiperformancespares.co. ... sket/5731/

AL

[Skid Mark]

yes if the tag is missing that is your problem kawasaki back in the day recalled some gpz1100s that where burning oil they modified the pistons & the rings for this same reason bikes where using up to a pint of oil every 700 miles.its best to paint the tab with a bit of white paint to make sure you do not get them overlapped

If this is the cause I will be so relieved! Good tip painting the tab especially with my eyesight!

[Skid Mark]

MLS (multi layer steel) head gaskets are made by Cometic as in APE, Wiseco etc etc.
They are about £80 but there is only one part, its a one piece item.
The Kawasaki two piece items are about £30 a side plus the centre 'O' ring is about £50!!!
I havnt mentioned Vesrah because for me something as critical as a head or base gasket is not somewhere i would cut a corner.

Here is an example of NOT the right one but for contact details and for an easy view of what we are talking about
https://www.suzukiperformancespares.co. ... sket/5731/

AL

Hi AL, TBH I went with Vesrah because some on here recommended them, some also recommended Cometic. I will go deluxe this time round with Cometic so.
I'm toying with the idea of reassembling the head with the old gasket just to see if the new expander ring cures the problem and then replacing with a new gasket once problem is solved, twice the work but I won't fu€k a gasket if it isn't the problem. Am I missing any reason I shouldn't do this?
Thanks
P

[z1bman]

the broken tab will 100% be the cause. be extra careful when sliding the cylinders over the oil control rings don't even think about reusing. i would clean out the exhaust down pipe before you put the exhaust system back on

[Mr Bump]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=43812&start=15

Sounds like you've found the problem, but this might be of interest too. Note my experience with viton seals that didn't fit correctly. Might be worth checking and changing them while you are in there. I would.

Olly

[Al]

Nothing wrong with Vesrah gaskets Phil its just that they didnt last me for what i have been using them for previously.
I expect you have come across piano wiring in gaskets. The MLS ones from Cometic have a version of that incorporated (bonded onto the surface)
The two main areas' that gave me trouble were the cam chain tunnel and the counter-bores round the oil carrying outer studs. Both of these have the secondary sealing system and to date i have had no issues. The other thing is that they are engineered and that is apparent when you see them. Apparently you can re-use them if they havn't 'passed' oil or gas on the surface but i have had no reason to test that boast yet.
If youre going to get one, smash it on there and so long as you dont blow the gasket you should be able to take it off and use it again. However; i think that you will now not need to.
See,.. i can be nice
AL

[z1bman]

http://z1ownersclub.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=43812&start=15

Sounds like you've found the problem, but this might be of interest too. Note my experience with viton seals that didn't fit correctly. Might be worth checking and changing them while you are in there. I would.

Olly

olly i must agree. personally i would only use genuine